Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

Nothing really, just vocalizing my wishes in relation to muscle memory

true, though the process is probably a bit faster for a left-handed tulpa in a right-handed body (or vice-versa) than for someone whose mental handedness corresponds to their muscle memory

Why would you not just use the right hand?

1:34 AM

It seems significantly more convenient, and I do promise you that being left handed is very inconvenient at times.

Okay, so say I have two personalities in my brain. A and B. I claim A and B have separate memories and are incapable of remembering from the other's memory line. How do I make a test that can prove this fact even if A and B are perfect at refusing to have cross-memory thoughts themselves? As far as every conversation, every behavior, they can be perfectly consistent with their claim while still having the capacity to cross-remember and simply be acting/in denial/be limited by their own belief systems. The sort of test I might construct is something akin to, but hopefully more ethical than, a simple physical reaction association. I would tell them to remain in a specific personality while subjecting them to a number of tests, one of which is the main test and the others are red herrings to take their focus off of the main test. The main test would be something like "a 'cue' sound plays and one second later they are shocked." Over the course of the test, they will develop a flinching response, and when they are within the other personality if they have a flinch response to the 'cue' sound that is evidence against memory separation.

Do you think being left handed is a large part of who you are as a person? (edited)

Sorry for the text wall.

Preference, and proceeding with being comfortable in the body.

That is interesting, Jasper.

1:36 AM

I would apply for this, but we do not claim separate memories.

A physical flinch response would be a very good test I believe

Agreed.

I would also apply for this, but I do not claim so in any realistic sense. In fact, that reaction would be psychologically categorized as a "body" memory if at all, as we would react to a sound cue by dissociating in response to anticipated pain.

Unless their own belief system would prevent it, a lie detector may be simpler (edited)

I am curious, Ivy. Do you consider being left handed a large part of who you are?

No, but it is a part of me, and when the fact noticing facial hair while possessing makes my skin crawl, anything closer to me being myself in the body I see as beneficial

I think a flinch test may not work.

That seems strange to me. Do you experience dysphoria while in the body?

I do at times

As I recall, nervous responses don't necessarily go through the brain once a person has been 'trained' to have a reaction to the stimulus.

1:40 AM

Or not to any conscious degree, at least.

1:41 AM

I'm not sure it would really show separation or centralization of chronological memory.

Do you think it is the same dysphoria that transgender people feel?

Wow, that would be closer, then, to how I would recognize the processing of the response. But that is very curious, how else could one test separation? Memorization processes?

1:43 AM

Okay, I have another idea that is more ethical.

That is a good question. I would like to see a test that works. Any other suggestions?

It may be, but I don't have anything to compare it to.

(Also, instead of a controlled shock, you could use a spray bottle.)

Arbitrary memorization test: A and B are personalities in my mind claiming full memory separation. A and B are tasked with a very long and arduous process of memorizing different associations between letters and numbers. A may be told z=10, while B is told z=13. There is a whole lot of these associations and they overlap in the letters given and numbers associated, so it will be hard in principle to honestly separate the associations to different personalities. In the end, I may be asked to, as quickly as possible, say the number associated with the letter while I'm in the "A" personality or the "B" personality, and full separation expects perfect scores and no cross-contamination in memorized number-letter associations. I would expect to fail, as organizing the separate sets of overlapping information would take way too long compared to memorizing different sets of characters and numbers with no cross-contamination.

Hm. Incidentally - going back to the reaction test for a moment, I think demonstrating separation in terms of memory and reaction to such conditioning would actually be quite strong evidence in favor of separation.

1:49 AM

To a larger degree than previously assumed, in fact.

1:49 AM

So - don't take my criticism as, necessarily, a reason not to do it.

Ethics.

I don't think it would be evidence of separation of chronological memory.

1:50 AM

@Jas Use a spray bottle rather than a shock.

1:50 AM

This is actually done as an example in high school classrooms.

1:50 AM

I'm fairly certain that it isn't a huge ethics concern.

Oh, okay! I would also be a little concerned with wedging any space between a person's self-identity and their physical responses. Maybe it is undesirable to be as separate from one's body as cards developed to be and I was destined to be. (edited)

are we still talking about left v. right handed-ness?

Hello

eyo

How is everyone?

I'm doing pretty well, super tired right now

5:42 AM

how are you doing?

This channel isn't for casual talk

Oops. Where then?

Lounge is probably best

Lounge keeps crashing Discord

truedat

Any advice on, not forcing a change, but teaching Tulpa?

What do you hope to teach them?

Better manners when speaking with others. He is to honest I guess.

8:25 AM

Less of a filter.

How developed is your tulpa?

1month 10d

8:28 AM

But we spend nearly every hour together. (edited)

8:29 AM

I should also say +1.5 years because he was semi there for a while.

Wow, congrats for the hard work. I was talking more about sentience though. If he's already really independent, it might be best just to have a word with him to see whether he thinks it's important to change. If he is, maybe correct him when he's too blunt or go through scenarios. If he's unwilling, you'd have to be more careful. Either way, lead by example? (edited)

Yah, he has been 'awake' for that time.

It's not a bad idea to use positive reinforcement either.

I was thinking to just not let him say some things.

8:35 AM

As in, not let him finish typing, idk.

I don't know about that. Forcing him not to say some things might make him angry with you and you don't want conflict. Have you spoken to him about it?

8:37 AM

It just doesn't seem right to me to forcefully stop him from doing something that isn't dangerous (correct me if I'm wrong). Might be better to try other methods first.

I don't know, It's just my first thoughts sometimes are to honest for him/others. I wouldn't get really upset with him, it's just... idk

-wolf

8:38 AM

We are both hear nearly all of the time, so feel free to talk with him maybe.

Wolf, would you be open to Syfar stepping in before you send an overly honest message? Then you guys could edit it together, think it through. (edited)

8:39 AM

Two minds are better than one!

Idk, if it comes from both of us, then its not my real thoughts. So am I really the one talking then. :/

8:40 AM

But I guess I could learn to think about what i'll say first.

Yeah, that's what I meant to say. And maybe Syfar could help you with that without changing the sentiment behind your messages.

Wait, I might have figured something out. What I type out is my first thoughts, so of coarse they would not be very filtered.

(edited)

8:43 AM

I guess, I know it sounds so childish, but I should think before I speak. Not that it seems that easy though.

8:44 AM

Then again, I guess I am sort of like a child.

I mean, as long as you know that, you're working on it and you have Syfar to support you, you'll get there. No need to rush, right?

Syfar likes to say time fixes many things. But he wants it fixed sooner rather then later. But yah, I guess I'll only get better with time.

(edited)

Yup. How come you think you're like a child?

I'm new. Am I not? I see things for the first time, despite remembering them.

I guess you would have the wonder of a child, but that doesn't mean you have the thought processes of a child.

True. Perhaps ... I don't know.

tulpas cognitively develop much faster than children, I suspect it's because they already have a brain containing most of the stuff they need to learn

Perhaps just as seeing things are new, so too is interacting with others. He just doesn't like the way I picked up first.

8:53 AM

I do want to learn though. So hopefully Ill get better naturally. I don't like it when he doesn't like what I'm doing.

you certainly sound quite mature and self-aware for a child

Well, I was around, at least in some small part for 1.5 years. As well as we talk for like 8-10 hours a day at work. for this past month and a week.

(edited)

8:56 AM

A lot of work, in a small time. I guess.

@Syfar System. I would advise trying to understand why politeness is good in the first place. Then, understanding that, you will both be in a far better position to determine how to be polite... And to what degree you find it important to be polite.

9:26 AM

Even something simple, such as: "Being polite to others helps them view me more favorably, and helps them trust that my judgement is in their interest, so they will treat me better."

Wow, that's interesting, and deep. I'll think on that. Thank you.

Hah. If you want to take it further, try to understand what makes behavior moral, rather than immoral.

9:32 AM

I don't believe it requires any appeals to authority figures, or to be based on fear of punishment from such.

~~how is winter so good at this~~

...not that doing so for morality in general answers your initial question, necessarily. But, it can help quite a bit in the long run.

9:35 AM

If it helps, perhaps try to consider what makes behavior "good" or "bad" in a vacuum, without taking an ego-centric, or even a human-centric viewpoint.

9:36 AM

Unless you can find some reason you should, of course.

You might have just blown my 4:40am mind.

9:38 AM

xD

I can only imagine how you would have reacted had you also been inebriated or stoned.

XD

In any case, good luck. Take your time. Feel free to message me if you wish.